[ExtractStream] Re: My Dangerous Idea - A technical question, not a legal question

[sharkey@a...]

> > Short term harm or long term harm?
> > 
> Either way harm is harm. 

True, but short term harm is frequently necessary to avoid even more
serious long term harm.

> I certainly don't want to be the cause of Tivo changing their business
> model even if I think it couldn't be worse. 

Why not? (That's a serious question, not an off hand dismissal.)

> Well, if they required the subscription that means they would force
> international hackers to subscribe to a service they don't need, plus of
> course they would have to let Tivo dial international. 

No. They should expand their service to cover international areas.

We all know the Tivo connection is a simple PPP link. There's no need
for Tivo to set up points of presence internationally, it just has to
contract out to local service providers to get the data to their servers.
The amount of bandwidth required for this is not so large. Getting and
organizing international TV listings can't be all that hard, assuming you
aren't going to branch out too far and add in Chinese support or something
else requiring characters which are difficult to render. But even that
is essentially a solved problem.

Even if they were to require internationals to "subscribe to a service
they don't need", I still have no sympathy. We all know we aren't really
paying for the service with our $10/mo. We're making up for the fact
that the hardware is still too expensive to be priced profitably and sell
well. The true cost of the hardware and software has to be hidden from
the consumer in the fine print of a service contract. It's just a marketing
ploy. It's a good one, though, and it works, but it currently has no
teeth to it. One slashdot poster described this kind of arrangement as
a ball and chain, without the chain. Nice image.

I paid my $200 for lifetime service up front. I'm quite happy to pay Tivo
for their true costs. I'm not trying to rip them off. But I don't want
to be penned in by their lousy marketing scheme, either, not when they
have the potential to be so much more.

> Now you may say that the international hacking community is a minority
> that shouldn't even count in their business model, which I agree with -
> however if you said then your reasoning for opening the guide format
> would be pointless.

No. The guide data could be easily supplimented with additional info.
Let's face it. The data Tivo provides isn't bad, but it's not so great.
Why, for instance, isn't there a simple way to set a season pass for
comedy central's "The Daily Show", which is broadcast four times daily,
usually with the blurb "No program description." (it is, after all,
a daily show, with programming not well known in advance.)

How about scripts that could automaticly fold in additional information
from sites like imdb.com?

How about listings for custom local channels, like those distributed only
within a University campus?

There are other uses besides international service.

> Calling Tridge (Andrew Tridgell) an elite hacker (well, he IS certainly
> elite, but in the good way) is absurd, just check his track record. 

I'm aware of his record. He has accoplished quite a great many things,
and I meant no disrespect by the term "elite hacker". That is what he
is, and I meant it very positively. It's this gated community he's
trying to work within that I object to. And it's not just because I'm
not included. I don't even want to look at any of that code while it's
covered by NDA's. It's much safer not to. I'm still left with the option
of repeating his work myself.

> There's good reasons for closed software, too. 

Yes, I agreed, I just don't think this particular case warrents it.

> But anyway, all this hacking started with Tridge & friends. What you
> guys (and me) are doing are peanuts compared to the tivonet, for
> example. 

I haven't done anything yet. I've been trying to graduate. Hopefully
when I've finished my thesis and moved on I can get some time to take
a look into this in more detail.

> You are being totally unfair. Have you tried to expand the functionality
> of your regular VCR?

No.

> If not, why?

Becuase the hardware doesn't lend itself to that. A VCR is a very limited
device which was designed to do a simple job and that's really all it can
do.

The Tivo is not in that class. It's a general purpose machine, with a
general purpose, programmable CPU. No VCR has such a thing.

> Have you called Panasonic or whatever
> to tell them where the **** are their specs? Have you called Yamaha and
> asked them to release the source code to their recoders' firmware, so
> you can hack around?

Again, Tivo is fully within its rights to not make any of this information
public, but, reverse engineering is still legal, and possible. They've
built a shaky business model around the fact that this information remains
secret, when in fact, it's impossible to keep it so forever. I am worried
as much for their own sake as I am my own.

Besides, I routinely contact hardware vendors and ask for specs. When you
work on projects that depend on hardware information (I work on
gimp-print, among other things), you have to at least *ask* for this
information. Sometimes the companies involved can be persuaded that it's
actually in their best interest to open up a bit. Sometimes not. If not,
you're left with the option of reverse engineering, or looking for another
vendor to endorse. I don't support companies that don't support me.

Eric