From rpeck at rpeck.com Mon Dec 9 15:26:04 2002 From: rpeck at rpeck.com (Ray Peck) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:26:04 -0800 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] mpeg-2 encoder quality for DVD? Message-ID: <15860.46604.272486.818009@rpeck.com> I know that most folks around here use TmpgEnc for encoding. I also have the MainConcept commercial encoder included in Vegas Video. Has anyone compared these two for DVD use? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "A creative process provides no guarantees. If it does, the process is not creative." - RF From nick at tcp.co.uk Mon Dec 23 05:05:10 2002 From: nick at tcp.co.uk (Nick Austin) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:05:10 +0000 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] TMPGEnc "source range" limit Message-ID: <4.3.1.20021223050429.01f63570@popmail.tcp.co.uk> I use TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 to re-encode programmes to SVCD. I have this working for short programmes and I can use the "source range" option in the Project Wizard to select sections from longer programmes. However I now want to re-encode a section from near the end of a three-hour programme. I have a problem. The slider bar in TMPGEnc will only show me the first 90-minutes of so of the programme so I cannot select the section I want. Has anyone else seen this? Is this a problem with TMPGEnc Plus? If so is there a workaround? Nick. From douglass at artships.com Mon Dec 23 06:07:02 2002 From: douglass at artships.com (John Douglass) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:07:02 -0600 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: TMPGEnc "source range" limit Message-ID: >However I now want to re-encode a section from near the >end of a three-hour programme. I have a problem. The >slider bar in TMPGEnc will only show me the first >90-minutes of so of the programme so I cannot select >the section I want. It's not a short-coming in TMPGEnc. It's your PC's operating system. Seems you've bumped-up against a FAT32 filesize problem, is my guess. Best practice is to NOT feed vsplit's m2v file to TMPGEnc, but to feed it to DVD2AVI first. So, do you see the whole show in DVD2AVI? I'm betting you don't. John -- "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but= when you do it blows your whole leg off." -- Bjarne Stroustrop, inventor of= C++ From nick at tcp.co.uk Mon Dec 23 20:16:56 2002 From: nick at tcp.co.uk (Nick Austin) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:16:56 +0000 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: TMPGEnc "source range" limit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.20021223201031.01f51ba0@popmail.tcp.co.uk> At 00:07 23/12/02 -0600, John Douglass wrote: > It's not a short-coming in TMPGEnc. It's your PC's operating system. > Seems you've bumped-up against a FAT32 filesize problem, is my guess. Of couse TiVo reports the size as 9524m but Windows 98SE shows that the m2v file is only 4GB! Doh! I've now used "Get Parts" option within tytools (with a bit of trial and error) to get the section I want. Thanks. Nick. From RLy at homestead-inc.com Sun Dec 29 22:47:55 2002 From: RLy at homestead-inc.com (Roger Ly) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:55 -0800 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Using LSX to encode DVD Message-ID: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E0@postal.homestead-corp.com> SSd2ZSBiZWVuIHVzaW5nIFRNUEdFbmMgdG8gZW5jb2RlIG15IGV4dHJhY3RlZCB2aWRlb3MgZnJv bSBteSBUaXZvIHRvIERWRCwgc28gSSBjYW4gYnVybiBzb21lIHNob3dzIG9mZiB0aGUgbWFjaGlu ZS4gIEkndmUgYmVlbiB1c2luZyBKRG91Z2xhc3MncyB0ZWNobmlxdWUgdG8gZG8gc28gRFZEMkFW SS0+VkZBUEktPlZpcnR1YWxEdWItPlRNUEdFbmMtPkRWRC4gDQogDQpBbnl3YXlzLCBzaW5jZSBJ IGFtIGVuY29kaW5nIHdoYXQgYW1vdW50cyB0byBiZSBhYm91dCAzIGhvdXJzIG9mIHZpZGVvIHBl ciBzaG93LCBpdHMgdGFraW5nIG1lIGFib3V0IDE2IGhvdXJzIHBlciB2aWRlbyB0byBlbmNvZGUu ICBJJ3ZlIGJlZW4gdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQgd2l0aCBMU1ggdG8gZW5jb2RlLCBzaW5j ZSBpdCBlbmNvZGVzIG11Y2ggZmFzdGVyLCBidXQgSSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gdW5hYmxlIHRvIGVuY29k ZSBpdCB3ZWxsIGVub3VnaCB0byBzZWUgaWYgTFNYIGdpdmVzIG1lIHRoZSBxdWFsaXR5IEkgZGVz aXJlLg0KIA0KTXkgZW5jb2Rpbmcgc2V0dGluZ3MgaW4gVE1QR0VuYyBhcmUgYXMgZm9sbG93czoN CjcyMHg0ODAgMjkuOTcgZnBzIE5UU0MNCjU4MDAga2JwcyBDQlIgdmlkZW8NCjQ6MyBkaXNwbGF5 DQo0OEtIeiwgMjI0IGticHMgYXVkaW8NCjEwIGJpdHMgREMgY29tcG9uZW50DQpIaWdoZXN0IHF1 YWxpdHkgTW90aW9uIHNlYXJjaA0KVG9wIEZpZWxkIEZpcnN0IChmaWVsZCBBKQ0KIA0KQW55d2F5 cywgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHNldCBzb21lIHNldHRpbmdzIGluIExTWCByZXN1bHQgaW4gdGhlIGZvbGxv d2luZzoNCi0gYmxhY2sgYmFycyBvbiBib3RoIHNpZGVzIG9mIHRoZSByZXN1bHRhbnQgdmlkZW8g LSBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IHNlZW0gdG8gZW5jb2RlIGF0IDcyMHg0ODANCi0gSSBnZXQgdmVyeSBqdW1w eSB2aWRlbyB3aGVuIHZpZXdlZCBvbiBhIFRWIChJIHVzZWQgdG8gZ2V0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHRoaW5n IHdpdGggVE1QR0VuYyB1bnRpbCBJIHVzZWQgamRvdWdsYXNzJ3Mgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBhbmQgdXNl ZCB0aGUgVG9wIEZpZWxkIEZpcnN0IHNldHRpbmcgaW4gVE1QR0VuYw0KLSBUaGUgcXVhbGlsdHkg b2YgdGhlIHZpZGVvIHNlZW1zIGRlY2VudCwgYnV0IEkgbmVlZCB0byBmaXggdGhlIG90aGVyIHR3 byBwcm9ibGVtcyBiZWZvcmUgSSBkZWNpZGUgdG8gbW92ZSB0byBMU1gNCi0gVGhlIGVuY29kaW5n IHRha2VzIGFib3V0IDUgaG91cnMgKG11Y2ggYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gMTYhKQ0KIA0KRG9lcyBhbnlv bmUgaGF2ZSBhbnkgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMsIG9yIGlzIHRoZXJlIGEgZ29vZCBndWlkZSBmb3IgVE1Q R0VuYyA8PT0+IExTWCBzZXR0aW5ncz8gIEFnYWluLCBJIHJlYWxseSBoYXZlIG5vIHByb2JsZW0g d2l0aCB0aGUgVE1QR0VuYyBvdXRwdXQsIEkganVzdCBjYW4ndCBzdGFuZCBzcGVuZGluZyBhIGRh eSBlbmNvZGluZyBhIHNpbmdsZSAzIGhvdXIgc2hvdy4gIEkgYWxzbyBkb24ndCByZWFsbHkgaGF2 ZSB0aGUgbWVhbnMgdG8gaW52ZXN0IGluIGEgYmV0dGVyIENQVSBmb3IgZW5jb2RpbmcuDQogDQpU aGFua3MsDQogDQpSb2dlcg0K From douglass at artships.com Mon Dec 30 06:26:49 2002 From: douglass at artships.com (John Douglass) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 22:26:49 -0800 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: Using LSX to encode DVD In-Reply-To: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E0@postal.homestead-corp.com> References: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E0@postal.homestead-corp.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:55 -0800, you wrote: >I've been using TMPGEnc to encode my extracted videos from my Tivo to = DVD, so I can burn some shows off the machine. I've been using = JDouglass's technique to do so DVD2AVI->VFAPI->VirtualDub->TMPGEnc->DVD.=20 Actually, my technique is more like DVD2AVI->TMPGEnc->DVD. >Anyways, since I am encoding what amounts to be about 3 hours of video = per show, its taking me about 16 hours per video to encode. Count your blessings. It takes me 10-times the show length to encode. So a 1 hour show, actually only 45 minutes sans adverts, takes me almost 450 minutes to transcode. > I've been trying to experiment with LSX to encode, since it encodes = much faster, but I have been unable to encode it well enough to see if = LSX gives me the quality I desire. >My encoding settings in TMPGEnc are as follows: >720x480 29.97 fps NTSC >5800 kbps CBR video >4:3 display I assume you mean "4.3 525 line (NSTC)" >48KHz, 224 kbps audio >10 bits DC component >Highest quality Motion search >Top Field First (field A) >=20 >Anyways, trying to set some settings in LSX result in the following: >- black bars on both sides of the resultant video - it doesn't seem to = encode at 720x480 Bummer! =20 >- I get very jumpy video when viewed on a TV (I used to get the same = thing with TMPGEnc until I used jdouglass's suggestion and used the Top = Field First setting in TMPGEnc Ah, then you have a Stand-alone tivo, as Dtivo's take "Bottom field first". As for why LSX would muck it up... Just in case LSX is backwards, did you try LSX's other setting? I googled "lsx encode" and got theis page right off the bat. Seems like some of your issues are addressable. http://www.geocities.com/eaussie01au/LSX.html Good luck! John -- Two wrongs are only the beginning. From thompsonb at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 29 05:14:36 2002 From: thompsonb at sbcglobal.net (thompsonb) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:14:36 -0800 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] TivoApp Conversion Message-ID: <002c01c2aef9$2eb07080$3201a8c0@thompson> I posted this message on Yahoo today and Marc pointed me here. Hopefully someone can shed some light on a TivoApp issue, I am using 2.3 to telnet and extract files from the Tivo just fine. The app crashes when converting. When attempting to convert a tyStream file, after selecting the file to convert and output filename, once I select "ok" the app crashes with "TivoApp has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down" TIVOAPP caused an invalid page fault in module TIVOAPP.EXE at 017f:0041116b. Registers: EAX=00000000 CS=017f EIP=0041116b EFLGS=00010246 EBX=00000234 SS=0187 ESP=017bfe5c EBP=006867fc ECX=017bfe8c DS=0187 ESI=00e9adc8 FS=56e7 EDX=00000003 ES=0187 EDI=007d4573 GS=0000 Bytes at CS:EIP: 8a 06 57 24 fe c1 e0 1d 99 89 01 89 51 04 8a 46 Stack dump: 00688b3c 0041367c 00e9adc8 017bfe8c 0065f3ac 006867fc 017bff64 00000070 bff713e2 00000000 0000cae5 00020000 00000000 bff92d49 e030d0bf 00000000 Thanks in Advance, Bry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.merlins.org/archives/extractstream/attachments/20021228/e876e669/attachment.html From RLy at homestead-inc.com Mon Dec 30 20:19:58 2002 From: RLy at homestead-inc.com (Roger Ly) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:19:58 -0800 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: Using LSX to encode DVD Message-ID: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E2@postal.homestead-corp.com> WW91IGtub3csIEkgd2FzIHdyb25nIGFib3V0IG15IFRNUEdFbmMgZW5jb2RpbmcgdGltZS4gIEEg MzozMCBzaG93IHRha2VzIG1lIDMyIGhvdXJzIHRvIGVuY29kZSwgc28gaXQgaXMgYmFzaWNhbGx5 IDEweCBmb3IgbWUgYXMgd2VsbC4gIEkgd2FzIGVuY29kaW5nIGhhbGYgb2YgdGhhdCBzaG93ICh0 byBmaXQgb24gb24gRFZEKSBhbmQgdGhhdCdzIHdoZXJlIEkgZ28gdGhlIDE2IGhvdXIgZXN0aW1h dGUuICANCiANCkkgaGFkIGJlZW4gdXNpbmcgeW91ciBUTVBHRW5jIHNldHRpbmdzLCBJIGd1ZXNz LCBhcyBvcHBvc2VkIHRvIHVzaW5nIHlvdXIgdGVjaG5pcXVlLiAgSSBoYXZlbid0IGJlZW4gYWJs ZSB0byBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgZWRpdCBvdXQgY29tbWVyY2lhbHMgdXNpbmcgVE1QR0VuYyB3aXRo b3V0IGNhdXNpbmcgc3luYyBpc3N1ZXMsIHNvIEkgZG8gdGhlIGN1dHRpbmcgaW4gVmlydHVhbER1 YiBhbmQgZnJhbWVzZXJ2ZSB0byBUTVBHRW5jLCB3aGljaCBoYXMgd29ya2VkIGZvciBtZSAodG9t YXl0byAtIHRvbWFodG8pLg0KIA0KQW55d2F5cywgSSd2ZSBzZXQgYWxsIGtpbmRzIG9mIHNldHRp bmdzIGluIExTWCwgYnV0IEkgZ3Vlc3MgSSBuZWVkIHRvIHRha2UgYSBtb3JlIHRob3JvdWdoIGFw cHJvYWNoIGFuZCBjaGFuZ2Ugb25lIHRoaW5nIGF0IHRpbWUsIHJlZW5jb2RlIGFuZCB2aWV3IGFu ZCBzZWUgd2hhdCBmaXhlcyB0aGluZ3MgZm9yIG1lLiAgSXQganVzdCBhIHBhaW4gSSBndWVzcyB0 byBjb250aW51YWxseSBkbyB0aGF0LCBidXQgSSBwcm9iYWJseSBkb24ndCBuZWVkIHRvIHJlZW5j b2RlIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBzaG93IHRvIHRlc3QgaXQuDQogDQpJJ2xsIHRha2UgYSBsb29rIGF0IHRo YXQgbGluayB5b3Ugc2VudCwgSm9obiwgYnV0IGp1c3QgcmVhZGluZyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgcGFyYWdy YXBoIG1ha2VzIG1lIHdvbmRlciBpZiBJIHNob3VsZCBldmVuIHVzZSBMU1guLi4NCiANClRoYW5r cywNCiANClJvZ2VyDQo= From douglass at artships.com Mon Dec 30 21:53:10 2002 From: douglass at artships.com (John Douglass) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:53:10 -0600 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: Using LSX to encode DVD In-Reply-To: <20021230193111.GA7288@alfter.us> References: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E0@postal.homestead-corp.com> <20021230193111.GA7288@alfter.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:31:11 -0800,Scott Alfter On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:26:49PM -0800, John Douglass wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:55 -0800, you wrote: >>=20 >> >I've been using TMPGEnc to encode my extracted videos from my Tivo to >> >DVD, so I can burn some shows off the machine. I've been using >> >JDouglass's technique to do so = DVD2AVI->VFAPI->VirtualDub->TMPGEnc->DVD. >>=20 >> Actually, my technique is more like DVD2AVI->TMPGEnc->DVD. > >That sounds not too different from what I do, except I throw Avisynth >between DVD2AVI and TMPGEnc (it offers much more flexibility in editing)= and >I encode to SVCD. Um, care to share your Avisynth script? I was just starting to get into avisynth before I re-installed WinXP. >> >Anyways, since I am encoding what amounts to be about 3 hours of = video >> >per show, its taking me about 16 hours per video to encode. >>=20 >> Count your blessings. It takes me 10-times the show length to encode. >> So a 1 hour show, actually only 45 minutes sans adverts, takes me >> almost 450 minutes to transcode. > >Ouch. With settings similar to the OP, I can encode the typical = "1-hour" >show (sans ads) in somewhere around 3 hours. You have this on your website? >> >- I get very jumpy video when viewed on a TV (I used to get the same = thing with TMPGEnc until I used jdouglass's suggestion and used the Top = Field First setting in TMPGEnc >>=20 >> Ah, then you have a Stand-alone tivo, as Dtivo's take "Bottom field >> first". As for why LSX would muck it up... Just in case LSX is >> backwards, did you try LSX's other setting? > >One thing you might try to speed up encoding and improve picture quality= is >inverse telecine. Since most TV starts out on film at 24 fps, preparing >film for broadcast typically involves slowing it down slightly to 23.976 >fps, then creating one additional frame for every group of four frames = to >bump the final framerate up to 29.97 fps. You can reverse this process = to >get progressive-scan video at 23.976 fps. This makes the "bottom = field/top >field" setting irrelevant. Since more bits are allocated to each frame, >you'll get better image quality. If I'm not mistaken, progressive-scan >video is also easier to encode than interlaced video...in any case, = you're >only encoding four-fifths as many frames, which has to amount to a >significant speed boost. Both SVCD and DVD-Video support this >framerate...DVD players will telecine video on-the-fly for playback. > >There's a fairly decent inverse telecine filter available for Avisynth.=20 >VirtualDub also has a good inverse telecine filter, but you'll need to = write >out a huge intermediate file for encoding since VirtualDub's inverse >telecine filter doesn't work when you frameserve. > _/_ Scott Alfter > / v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org >(IIGS( http://salfter.dyndns.org Top-posting! Let us know how you do this, please. Especially the part about avoiding sync issues by frameserving. Thanks! John -- "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but= when you do it blows your whole leg off." -- Bjarne Stroustrop, inventor of= C++ From douglass at artships.com Tue Dec 31 16:56:22 2002 From: douglass at artships.com (John Douglass) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:56:22 -0600 Subject: [Extractstream [MM]] Re: Avisynth (was: Using LSX to encode DVD) In-Reply-To: <20021231090346.GA11594@alfter.us> References: <9B9B61FC5C65A94EAFC1950F2E58FCF80F55E0@postal.homestead-corp.com> <20021230193111.GA7288@alfter.us> <20021231090346.GA11594@alfter.us> Message-ID: <2ac31vcfbkj5i9krm0aapmgtlnvjmv2lis@4ax.com> (Scott: Please note that you should be replying to extractstream@lists.merlins.org instead of me directly so that everybody gets to hear you. Just verify the "To:" field before you send.) On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:03:46 -0800, Scott Alfter wrote: >On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 03:53:10PM -0600, John Douglass wrote: >> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:31:11 -0800,Scott Alfter > wrote: >>=20 >> >On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 10:26:49PM -0800, John Douglass wrote: >> >> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:55 -0800, you wrote: >> >>=20 >> >> >I've been using TMPGEnc to encode my extracted videos from my Tivo= to >> >> >DVD, so I can burn some shows off the machine. I've been using >> >> >JDouglass's technique to do so = DVD2AVI->VFAPI->VirtualDub->TMPGEnc->DVD. >> >>=20 >> >> Actually, my technique is more like DVD2AVI->TMPGEnc->DVD. >> > >> >That sounds not too different from what I do, except I throw Avisynth >> >between DVD2AVI and TMPGEnc (it offers much more flexibility in = editing) and >> >I encode to SVCD. >>=20 >> Um, care to share your Avisynth script? I was just starting to get >> into avisynth before I re-installed WinXP. > >Once you've split foo.ty into foo.m2v and foo.m2a, run foo.m2v through >DVD2AVI to produce foo.d2v, and run foo.m2a through LAME to produce = foo.wav, Um, why? TMPGEnc will also run it through LAME during the transcode. (Why may become apparent in a moment.) >something like this will load the files together: (needs mpeg2dec.dll) You mean the version of mpeg2dec that goes with one's version of Avisynth, right? I went to avisynth.org and got version 2.07. I got a version of MPEG2DEC.dll, extracted to C:\Avisynth2\plugins, put in my script: LoadPlugin("c:\program files\avisynth2\plugins\MPEG2DEC.dll") >AudioDub(MPEG2Source("foo.d2v"),WAVSource("foo.wav")) This associates a frameserved video (through DVD2AVI) with a synched audio that has been converted to 48KHz (for DVD) or 44KHz (for SVCD), right? >If your splitter mentioned that you need an audio offset of 5 ms, = include >that in the script: >DelayAudio(.005) >To get rid of the noise that sometimes appears in the first two = scanlines, >try this: Well, for my "Best quality" recording: >Crop(0,2,544,478) >AddBorders(0,2,0,0) >Get the inverse telecine filter (another DLL) and you can apply that to >shows that were originally filmed: >InverseTelecine(40,10,15) I'm... An unbeliever, here, as I don't see every fourth frame being a copy of another frame. >To do non-linear editing, start by loading what you have so far into >VirtualDub (so you can find your cutpoints). Create your cuts like this >(the frame numbers are examples): >c1=3DTrim(100,200) "c1 is that portion of foo.m2v (frameserved as foo.d2v) that has been muxed with foo.wav between frame 99 and 199 (as the first frame is numbered 0, not 1)", right? >c2=3DTrim(300,400) >c3=3DTrim(500,600) >etc. > >Combine them together with UnalignedSplice: > >UnalignedSplice(c1,c2,c3) (Functions that don't appear to yield a value to a variable instead assign a value to the builtin, understood variable, "last".) >To load the script into TMPGEnc for encoding, you'll need to disable the >DirectShow input filter (don't know why you have to do that, but it = won't >work if you don't). Oops. Just got lost. Assuming Avisynth has been installed, the above script, written to the file "foo.avs", is loaded into TMPGEnc... Where? As the video? I did that, and... Cool! Both the video and audio source are "foo.avs", and the output file is "foo.mpg". =20 >> >Ouch. With settings similar to the OP, I can encode the typical = "1-hour" >> >show (sans ads) in somewhere around 3 hours. Are you saying that, now that I have foo.avs loaded in TMPGEnc, and although the picture in TMPGEnc looks to be 720x480, I still need to push the TMPGEnc "Start" button to transcode the show to 720x480 and save it to an mpg file? And that by letting avisynth do all this editing and resizing TMPGEnc has little else to do, so the time TMPGEnc runs is reduced by half? This I gotta try!=20 The script I'm trying is: LoadPlugin("c:\program files\avisynth2\plugins\MPEG2DEC.dll") AudioDub(MPEG2Source("serenity.d2v"),WAVSource("serenity.wav")) DelayAudio(.014) Crop(0,2,544,478) AddBorders(0,2,0,0) BicubicResize(720,480) #Above three lines are much the same as the following line #BicubicResize(720,480,0,0.75,0,2,544,478) # # The following Trim lines are not what I'm going to use, # they are just examples of the six I will use. # c1=3DTrim(900,-100) =09 # Start with frame 1999, and encode the next 100 c2=3DTrim(2000,-100) UnalignedSplice(c1,c2) # Following line added for TMPGEnc ConvertToRGB24 =20 >> You have this on your website? >IIRC, the TMPGEnc settings on my TiVo-to-SVCD page are the ones I'm >currently using. >http://salfter.dyndns.org Yeahbut, your website talks about a whole lot of VirtualDub stuff that, with avisynth, just ain't necessary, right? John, Wishing everybody a Happy New Year! -- "Exodus will never disconnect a spammer. By the time the complaints reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will prevent their admins from reaching the servers." -- Clifton T. Sharp